Essential Steps To Marriage Recovery Part 2

A hidden struggle doesn’t just hurt you; it quietly rewrites your marriage. James Craig sits down with spiritual coaches Ann Donahue and Aaron Tagert to talk about one of the most loaded questions in sexual addiction recovery and marriage healing: what if my spouse doesn’t want to hear confession, or I’m convinced they’ll reject me if they really know me?

We walk through practical recovery steps for husbands in recovery (and anyone navigating sexual brokenness): why secrecy keeps you stuck, why “what isn’t known can’t be healed,” and how shame turns mistakes into identity. Ann and Aaron explain what betrayal trauma can look like in a spouse’s body and mind, why empathy matters more than speeches, and why sobriety is only the baseline for rebuilding trust. We also dig into boundaries as protection, not punishment, and how consistent actions create real safety over time.

Then we get concrete with check-ins. Aaron shares the FANOS framework (Feelings, Affirmation, Needs, Ownership, Sobriety) as a structured weekly rhythm that helps couples repair ruptures, grow emotional honesty, and rebuild attachment after betrayal. Lastly, we discuss how a full therapeutic disclosure and couples-centered recovery can give a marriage its best fighting chance for restoration, intimacy, and long-term healing.

If this resonates, listen through, share it with someone who needs a path forward, and subscribe so you don’t miss what’s next. After you listen, would you leave a review and tell us what part of honesty feels hardest right now?

Resources from this episode:

5 Essential Steps for Husbands in Recovery PDF

Awaken check-in FAQs

Becoming Whole Podcast: Aaron Tagert & Lyshel Burket on check-ins

FANOS

R2M Application

Becoming Whole Podcast: Disclosures

Contact us today: If you have a question, comment, or need help, email us at info@regenerationministries.org

Free Resources for you!

👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Recap And Recovery Roadmap

James 0:00

Last week, we began this incredible conversation about the importance of a spouse knowing about our struggles. If we're married, perhaps even if we're engaged or in a serious dating relationship, we were addressing the question, what if my spouse or partner doesn't want to hear confession? What if they don't? What if I don't think they wanna know anything about my struggles? I wanna take it to the grave. And on a micro level, what if. What if they don't want to know on a regular basis if I'm struggling? So we're gonna pick up that conversation today and by we, I'm, I'm talking about myself, James Craig, director of project, spiritual coach at Regen, and Ann Donahue. And Aaron Taggart. Two of our awesome spiritual coaches. Ann and Aaron work together often with couples on disclosures, which we will get to at the end of, uh, this episode. Um, but we wanna. Invite you back into this PDF. We're working through. We've created a PDF called the Five Essential Steps for Husbands in Recovery. Now, as we're talking about on the podcast, we're trying to acknowledge that it's not just husbands who deal with sexual sin and brokenness. Then have a betrayed wife. It also sometimes is wives who are dealing with sexual brokenness or infidelity and have a betrayed husband. So, uh, as you're listening along, or even as you check out that P-D-P-D-F, it is written primarily to the men who are in our programs, the men we're coaching, but also recognizing that these same steps could be really helpful if you're a woman in recovery from sexual brokenness and you have a. Uh, a husband who's, who's navigating it. So last week we, we began diving into these questions. We got into step one of the document, begin your personal recovery journey. Uh, set it up for success by using the three Cs of effective recovery. Get in a community recovery community, get good content and get, uh, coaching or counseling for that one-on-one Deep dive into your story. This week we're gonna pick back up and just briefly talk about step two, because we did get into this guys, uh, last week. Step two of our document is for those. Kind of somewhat unique situations where your spouse knows nothing of your struggles. Perhaps you've been struggling for years. You brought it into the marriage. They had no idea at any point that you've been struggling. Or maybe they thought you were struggling while you were dating, but they figured that you had kind of worked through it and. For, for those who are in that spot in marriage, your spouse knows nothing.

Step Two: Ending The Secret

James 2:19

Again, we encourage you. Dive right in with recovery. Start with step one. Just sign up. Even if you're not gonna get to start recovery tomorrow, sign up. Maybe you, you get to start in a month, but you're ready, you're ready to go immediately after that is step two. Your spouse needs to know about your struggles if they don't know anything yet. So, I'm gonna start, um, with you, Aaron. Let's just say I'm a man who has three C's going, right? Uh, I'm signed up for Awaken 360, which has community and content. I've signed up with Aaron, the awesome AA Ron Taggart for some coaching to unpack my story. Aaron, isn't it better to just work on myself? Uh, again, we've, we've touched on this a little bit, but, but why, why do I, why do they, they need to know it all. Let's just reiterate that a little bit this week. Why does my spouse need to know it all that I'm struggling? If I'm working on myself? If I'm growing, why can't I just keep this secret?

Aaron 3:09

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, you're gonna stay stuck. Your relationship is never going to be what it could be. Um, because you're living, um, you're living a sort of a secret relationship, you know, something that she doesn't. Uh, and so even, you know, even if you feel like your relationship's going really well, I would actually say your relationship could be so much better. Um, if. If she knew and in time through healing. Um, and Ann and I have seen this, uh, with couples that we've worked with, uh, through the disclosure process that you would think, oh my gosh, I'm gonna share this information and it's the end of us.

James 4:01

Mm.

Aaron 4:02

And really what it ends up being is this beautiful hard journey of healing. And it takes the couple to a place. That they've never known, uh, in their relationship at such a deeper level of intimacy and trust and safety. And, um, and so I would say it, it's, it's actually gonna hold you back if, if, if you don't for your own, for your own sake. It's great that you're working on your recovery and things like that, but to continue to live with, um. That sort of secret information, you know, again, that said last week, you know, what's not known can't be healed. Um, and so it's really important to bring that to the light and invite Jesus into that so that the, the, the husband, the wife, and the relationship and experience that, that healing that, that he wants.

Anne 5:01

Aaron, when, when you shared that I was picturing right. Somebody walking around, and this is gonna sound intense right off the bat, um, but somebody walking around with cancer and they don't know.

Aaron 5:13

Mm-hmm.

Anne 5:15

My hope is that they discover that they have cancer and can get the treatment and get the help and get the restoration and. Um, every wife deserves to know the truth, right? When you join in a, a two person relationship, when you covenant together to be husband and wife, for better or for worse, right? It, it is sacred. It's a sacred marriage, it's a sacred attachment. And when one person doesn't know what's going on, like when somebody doesn't know they have cancer. That is just, that's just breaks my heart so I Yes. Share.

Aaron 5:57

Mm-hmm.

Anne 5:58

Right. Like when in the, in the psalm, right? Um, when I kept silent, my bones wasted away. So, um, it's urgent actually. It's critical to share, and yes, it's terrifying. And it's lifesaving is at the same time.

James 6:21

It's almost like for many of the men who might be in this situation, or the women as well, the idea of disclosing this information, it's almost like we're convinced that intimacy, true intimacy is not possible. Like if I'm really known in the depth of my struggle. I'm gonna be rejected. And now we're not guaranteeing, by the way, uh, to our listeners, we're not guaranteeing that the disclosure of this does not sometimes lead to, to rupture and even sometimes to divorce. But by holding it in, we're actually believing the lie that if I'm truly and fully known, I'll never be loved. And so I think in our, I'm even thinking about a man in his own recovery journey. There's such an importance. To recognizing by hiding this information, by hiding this rupture, I'm actually reinforcing the sense that I can't be someone who has true intimacy, which is the exact lie that pornography is espousing.

Aaron 7:23

Yeah, I mean, I, again, I just think it, that sort of thinking just keeps you stuck in that cycle. Um,

James 7:29

yeah.

Aaron 7:29

You know, and, uh, and, and I think too, part of the, you know, I would say sh you know, the, the amount of, uh, shame or the role shame plays in this

James 7:43

mm,

Aaron 7:44

is a paralyzer. Um, you know, it prevents, it prevents the. Steps of sharing it prevents the, you know, 'cause you just start to fill your head with all these what ifs or the guilt and the shame of, you know, what you've done or, and even wearing that as identity, like if they really knew me and it's like, well hold on. That's not really you, that's something you've done. So you need to be able to separate the, the, you know, the acts, the different, the shame from, from who you are. Um, because that, uh, uh, in itself. You know, you're approaching this from a place of, you know, condemnation and, and, and those things where, you know, that's, that's not what Christ has for you or for the fullness of your relationship.

James 8:30

Beautiful. I think it's so important to get into step three in a little bit more detail. Step three of our document is that your spouse, uh, that you need to help your spouse get the support that they need, and that starts with you. Actually, the first thing we note on the doc is that. Uh, again, the doc is primarily addressed to husbands. We say it will help

Betrayal Trauma And Empathy

James 8:52

you as the husbands to learn about betrayal trauma, to learn about the impact of a hidden, uh, sexual behavior that's now coming to the light. There's a rupture, um, often what is called betrayal trauma. There's a disorientation of, of the entire system. And so one of the recommendations we have is we have a free compass course, which is actually designed for wives who have experienced betrayal, but. If you're a husband, you can, you can sign up, you could watch the eight videos. Ann and, and some of our team are teaching about these concepts, these key concepts of betrayal. Um, also recognizing that there are three major, according to app sets, which is a organization that works really hard on understanding betrayal trauma. There are three kind of stages your spouse might be going through, and within this idea of understanding, betrayal, recognizing that. Sobriety is not actually what your wife's looking for. That's actually just the baseline. We have a little kind of diagram slideshow where it's like, uh, when you're, when you're not sober, you're actually kind of at like negative 10 and being sober, being in a place of sexual integrity, relatively speaking, is kind of getting back to zero. But actually what's needed for true recovery in your marriage is moving beyond that, becoming a man of love or in the, or a woman of love toward your spouse. Anything you guys wanna say about this kind of psychoeducation, if you will, of understanding this? Maybe I, I know we don't have time to make this an entire like, lesson on what betrayal trauma is, but I'm especially curious for you, Anne, if there's just any ways that you try to help the women you walk with or when you do get to speak to a couple, you try to help the man understand how, if he's the betrayer, how his, uh, behaviors have impacted his wife.

Anne 10:37

Well, I think education is empowerment. And when a wife learns of, um, secret sexual behavior and e either she discovered it or he dis disclosed it to her. I mean, instantly there's probably gonna, you're probably gonna notice a trauma response on her, whether she has to sit down, she can't breathe, right. She starts to panic. Just you knowing that information is gonna really help stabilize her. First of all, if, if she can get some help and under, and education around what just happened to me.

James 11:16

Yeah.

Anne 11:16

I feel like I, you know, I can't think, I can't eat. I can't, um, concentrate, like knowing those things are, you know, life saving potentially. And I, I love the idea of education. The, the husband learning about betrayal, trauma, and the wife getting the support she needs to start making sense of what her body is telling her.

James 11:44

Erin, have you seen this

Anne 11:45

critical.

James 11:47

Aaron, have you seen this be helpful for guys that you're walking with? Who, who are the ones who are the betrayer to, to better understand what's going on here?

Aaron 11:55

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think this is really where empathy comes in. You start to, um, you kind of put yourself in her shoes, um, in a way. And so the more you can, um, empathize with her and what she's going through, um. The, the, the more healing she's actually going to experience. Um, and which is really ironic. And, you know, so one of the things I share with, with the men that I work with is that, um, you know, the, the, the wives are, uh, are leaning on, on their, their partner, you know, for part of their healing. You know, the ways that he's showing up. The ways that he's learning, the way that, you know, that he's, you know, he's able to sit with some of her questions and not, you know, be super angry, right? So growing in, growing in empathy in different ways is actually allowing her to experience healing. Um, and the more that she heals, the more that he heals, the more that the relat. Will heal, uh, or can heal. Um, and so I think the knowledge and the kind of understanding and building up these different things all sort of create a foundation for him to understand more of what she's going through. And then the more he's aware of that, the more he can actually, you know, show up. Now. It's not just like, here's. Three easy steps to being empathetic. Like it's, you know, again, we talked about this I think last week, you know, where, you know, that's part of the problem with pornography and different things is that we don't know how to emotionally regulate. And so we turn to external things to, to, you know, escape that this is becoming more present, um, and more present for her, uh, in, in the midst of this. So you, you actually have this sort of, kind of. I don't wanna say beautiful opportunity. It's just crazy, you know, like, yes, you may have been the cause of, of, of what you guys are going through, but you also get to play a really foundational role in the healing, especially for her.

Anne 14:12

And it's so well said. I mean, if, if empathy and attunement are like the gold. The gold for the gold stamp. I, I can't find even the right word for it. It goes miles and miles and miles have, being empathetic and attuned to your wife

Aaron 14:35

in a lot of ways, it's like it's, you're able to do that in some ways, almost. For the first time, you know, like where you've, you know, you've maybe not seen, you know, her or him for, for who they are and what, you know, and, and, and, and different things. Now you're, you're sort of, you have a, a different lens on.

James 14:51

Mm-hmm.

Aaron 14:52

And so you're able to kind of see them in a different light and, and even just knowing, you know, everything that's, that's gone on, you know, that. You know, your, your presence and you're showing up. And that's why that ongoing recovery is so important because it communicates, uh, behavioral truth, you know, not just the words. You know, and, and I, I say this to guys all the time in recovery, that, you know, your actions now will speak more than your words ever could. Um, and you know, there's the old saying, right? Actions speak louder than words, and I don't think that's ever as true as it is in recovery. You, you have to show up, you have your actions, have to show that very thing.

James 15:35

And this is such an opportunity for, for love, for that. Ephesians five, like, love your wife. The way Christ loves the love, like this is the Christian walk. Guys like as hard as this can be to learn to love when all we've been doing is using and, and lusting and not all we've been doing, but when that's been a big part of our life, this is actually the stuff that matters in God's eyes is to learn to lot. It's not just, Hey, do you know all this truth? Can you recite scripture? As great as those things are. It like Aaron just said, the rubber meets the road. Your actions of love are gonna transform you. Your marriage are gonna make all the difference. And were you gonna say something there?

Anne 16:13

I was just gonna share a quote from, um, Jake Porter and it's, um, I'm gonna read it. I be, I, uh, betrayed spouse trust what they feel, not what they're told. So becoming a safe person. Is what their spouse is actually needing. Not telling them that they're safe. Being safe. Yeah. Thanks for bringing this up. This is really beneficial.

James 16:45

Well, and a key part of the safety is, is boundaries. Anne, like still within step three, get your spouse's support they need. Boundaries are so important. And one of the things we say in the doc, we don't give a lot on this, but uh, again, speaking primarily here to husbands support the boundaries she asks for, even if she doesn't ask perfectly, boundaries will actually help you as well. It'll help you feel the consequences

Boundaries That Create Real Safety

James 17:07

of your action, which will encourage your own healing and maturity. And how are you thinking about boundaries when you're walking with a wife? When, when, when she does start engaging the three Cs, which by the way is the ending of the step three, is hey, she might need that one-on-one support from someone like Anne. She's gonna need, uh, content perhaps. She's definitely gonna need community things like our compass groups and wive support groups. So when, when you're actually meeting with women in these settings, and if a, if a woman has the courage to, to step into these healing spaces for herself, what kind, how are you thinking about boundaries? And again, recognizing a, a, a betrayed spouse, not always gonna ask perfectly, but why are boundaries still worthwhile, even if not done perfectly?

Anne 17:50

I like the idea that boundaries keep what's good in and what's bad out. Like right. If you have a fence and you are protecting your kids from a neighbor's, um, you know. Um, kind of wild dog, right? You're protecting what's good. You're, you're keeping safe. What's good. And so when she says, like, please go to your group. Please protect your phone. Please add safeguards onto your phone to protect your eyes, your your heart. Um, I'm having trouble sleeping at night. Would you be willing to sleep in another room? Um, I can't. I can't get a good, you know, that good night's sleep. Would you, would you sleep in the guest room? Um, you know, would you have accountability partners? Would you meet with them regularly? Um, you know, would you do these things for me? And again, it's, it's not, they're not rules. They're protections. To protect the good of the marriage, protect the good of the relationship to provide safety and stability for her. So I, they're not, I don't look in them as, um, uh, negative. I look at, uh, them as positive

James 19:10

and they're not pouring concrete. Like you're not saying in, Hey, if a wife is needing space, that is for sure gonna need to be for the rest of your marriage necessarily. I mean, obviously there could be occasionally those types of situations or. You know, whatever. But more often than not, boundaries are adjusted over time. And

Anne 19:30

I like to think of them sometimes as like cones. Like, you know, when you're driving on a, a major highway and, and someone puts these. Big orange cones around, which is steering you into the right lane, protecting you from oncoming traffic. That sometimes boundaries can move, sometimes they can adjust. They're not set in cement, but they're beneficial. And if you are listening to your wife who's asking for a boundary, take them to heart and honor her.

James 20:02

Aaron, I've, I've seen really cool examples of husbands that I've coached kind of on their own volition, setting up their own boundaries in, in like, in a way of saying like, I, I remember, uh, for some it might be like, I'm gonna choose to sleep on the floor next to you when I've fallen because I actually want to feel some of the weight of it. I actually want to feel like for the next two days I'm gonna feel this because. I can't even imagine what you're feeling. You know what I mean? Like there's almost like this. Now obviously you could take that the wrong way and do kind of self-flagellation, but, but in, for some of us, there's actually healthy consequences we could even suggest to our spouse that will increase their sense of safety, will increase our empathy, will actually help us to feel it a little bit like, ooh, that that's not just causing her pain. And it's not even just that I'm feeling the pain of her anger at me or something like that. It's actually. I want to change so deeply that I'm gonna kind of set up some of those things for myself.

Aaron 21:04

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that, and that might even come from a conversation that you lead. Yeah. With her asking her, Hey, what, what do you need? You know, if this happens, or, you know, so, you know, the boundaries aren't necessarily have to be. Sort of from her, it's actually gonna be something that you lead, uh, in, in a way, you know, a discussion together. Um, and I think that too is just a different, totally different way of showing up. Um, you know, and so whether it's, you know, I, I don't wanna say self-imposed, I don't know if that's quite the right wording, but like a, um, you know, you, you're leading some things, suggestions and things that you can do, and I think that's great. I think that's taking initiative. And I think when you're doing that, you're, you're thinking about her. Mm-hmm.

James 21:55

But

Aaron 21:55

you're also thinking about yourself. Like what? Like this is, you know, putting stuff on my phone that's gonna help me, but it's also gonna communicate something to her, you know? And so I think there's, you know, I would almost say when you're thinking about some different things, take a step. Is it just about you or something you're trying to do for yourself? Or, and if it is, think about, okay, well what is also, what is the benefit of that for her or for the relationship? Right? So kind of get out of just this singular, and again, I think that's part of that growing in empathy journey. You know? 'cause it's easy to say, oh yeah, this is gonna help my recovery. Great. What's it gonna do for her?

James 22:38

Hmm.

Aaron 22:39

And, and so, you know, you want to be thinking like, yeah, right? Like it's really easy to think, uh, put a filter on my phone, like, that's gonna be so helpful for me. Yes. It's also gonna be super helpful for her 'cause it's communicating that, you know, safety and of course there's other things that, you know, can go with that. But, um, I would, I would really look for opportunities where it's not just, you know, those boundaries are. Kind of linear, you know? Instead, how does this affect both of us?

Anne 23:10

Hmm.

James 23:11

This is not an invitation to say, Hey, the struggler gets to set all the boundaries and the No, we're just saying like, take that initiative. It's gonna be a blessing. Take additional initiative. Your spouse might be setting some boundaries on you, and you might be setting some boundaries on yourself because of love, because you actually want to see change. And we recognize too, boundaries don't change the heart per se, but they're important guardrails so that you can actually do the work of heart change. That's how we often say it in awaken, like putting a filter on your phone is not gonna change your heart. But it is gonna make things safer. It's gonna potentially help with sobriety. Obviously, that's the goal of them, and it's gonna make room then when you're more sober to do that deeper work of the heart. And so speaking of that deeper heart work, again, I just wanna reiterate within this step, if you're able to gently and wisely encourage your spouse to have the three Cs for their own journey, encourage them to get community, be part of a wives group or healing groups of. For betrayed spouses, get them access to good content coaching, counseling, and again, recognizing that you telling them these things has to be done very delicately because they're like, why do I have to do all this work when you're the one who actually messed things up for us? Instead, what we're what the heart behind this is, is recognizing your spouse who's been betrayed by you is worth the care. You're probably getting some hopefully good care in groups, and you might be getting your own counselor coaching. They're worth it as well, and if they're experiencing any of the symptoms of beef trail trauma, it could make a really big difference to walk with someone and to walk with a group. All right, we gotta move on for the sake of time. Our step four is establishing check-ins Now. We actually also have an FAQs within our Awaken program. We'll link to that PDF as well. Um, if you're kind of trying to think through what does a good check-in look like, we're not super prescriptive. Like, you should definitely do this and you should definitely do that, but we've got good suggestions. Another great tool that Aaron, you were telling me about is Thanos, and I've, I've used this with some

FANOS Check-Ins For Repair

James 25:14

of the people I work with. Um, Aaron, could you just start by giving us a little overview? What is Thanos and why would you recommend that being perhaps a weekly check-in or even more often?

Aaron 25:25

Yeah. Um. I would say the, the, the frequency we actually did, um, in our fall season, we, we did an episode where I sat down with Elle Burquette and we talked about check-in. So we'll link that in the show notes too. Yeah. Just to, if you want a little more in depth, listen, uh, at what. Might look like. Um, but uh, yeah, the Thanos is good because it's, it's structured. Uh, and a lot of times you're maybe not sure where to, to enter in, uh, to, you know, we've never done check-ins before. Now we're doing check-ins. What, what does that mean? What does it look like? How do we do this? Right? And so this is just super practical. Um, and it comes from Dr. Mark and Debbie Lazer and some of their earlier work. But, um, it stands for feelings, affirmation, needs own, or ownership and sobriety. Uh, and so it's an opportunity for you to, to state a feeling. That you're having, uh, which is again, really important 'cause you're starting to get in touch with how you actually feel. You're growing in that. So you're starting to name, Hey, I'm, I'm feeling really angry about this thing. Or I'm really, you know, sad about, you know, whatever. So now you're, you're kind of doing some new things. The affirmations, you're giving your spouse an affirmation. Um, you know, thank you for, you know, doing the dishes last night, or thank you for doing this thing, or, you know, for showing up in this way. You know, you responded really gently where normally, you know, you're a little more harsh. I just want to, you know, say thank you or something along those lines, um, needs you, you communicate a need, you know, and there's a couple of these areas where when you're checking in, like. I would say a lot of relationships don't actually do some of these things. You know, communicate like a need that, that you have, not necessarily from your partner, um, but just a, a need that you have, uh, and you're able to communicate that. Um, and then the o owning, uh, or taking ownership, maybe, maybe you were harsh, uh, your wife was asking you some questions about this journey or your recovery group and you kind of, you know, came out sideways and in your check-in, you have the opportunity to go back and take ownership. You know, again, for saying something like, um. Hey, I, I responded really harshly to that question that you asked, and, you know, I'm, uh, uh, I apologize for doing that. I recognize that I did that and I want to take ownership for that. So, I'm sorry. Um, again, a lot, a lot of relationships don't practice the taking ownership or coming back, and that's part of the repair, actually, uh, rupture and repair in relationship. And so part of the repair is identifying those things and being able to speak them out. And then the last one, especially for the struggler, would be sobriety, maybe an update sort of on, on how the journey's going. Again, not super detailed, um, just sort of, um, you know, maybe, and, and again, this is something that you and your, your, your partner essentially would, you know, kind of maybe put some boundaries around. Like what exactly do you wanna know for the sobriety? Part, like the acting out, the, you know, if I, if I told anybody, um, you know, whatever. But I don't also like to just leave it at sobriety. I think it's important to also include, you know, what are you, what are you learning? Or, or what's a lord doing? Like, so like a spiritual element or component to that for the struggler. And this is actually something that the partner will do too. They'll go through Thanos as well. But you get down to sobriety. Well, they're, they're not struggling. So they don't have a, an well assuming

James 29:00

they're not struggling. Occasionally there can be that, right? Yeah, typically. Typically.

Aaron 29:04

Um, and some, yeah, sometimes yes. But, um, if, if they don't have a struggle, um, you know, they can, you know, for, for the spouse, uh, I've heard, you know, safety. You know, like communicating like something around safety, safety and spirituality or, you know, something along those lines. So really, you know, sort of basic but structured check-in. Um, again, it can happen, you know, I, I think in our conversation with Lashelle, we talked about in the beginning it might, you might do this more, um, and then kind of scale back. So you might do this two times a week and then over time. You know, one time a week or, you know, whatever. But it's something that you and your partner need to really talk about, uh, and put some boundaries around. How often does she really, the question I think is how often do, do, do you need this? Or how, uh, you know, is that gonna be helpful? Um, you know, for, for, for you.

James 30:00

And why is this important? Why is this important? If, if a guy is in awaken, he's confessing every week, why is it still important in your mind? For the, for the couple to have this kind of check-in or, uh, we work with some, you know, some people in our team are Catholic and they have priests that they have this formal sacrament of confession. So if, if I, I know that my spouse is going to that, I know that they're going to a group and, and checking in. Why is this still important in your mind to do these types of check-ins?

Anne 30:27

Well, I could talk all day about this because what I see what happens for couples is. Uh, betrayal, um, impacts their attachment. It's, it's a break. If their at attach is an attachment wound, right? When the husband and wife have like, come together and become one flesh, they've attached, when there's a betrayal, there's a break in that. So check-ins is, is a repairing, is a, is a way to come back together and begins to, um, reestablish their attachment, which is connection and a bond and listening and sharing. And it's, it's begins to take what's broken and starts to slowly put it back together. It's, it's a, it's a check-in, but it's healing their attachment wound. It's beautiful.

Aaron 31:20

Yeah.

Anne 31:21

It's a process though, right? It's, it's just take your time. If you just start with f just start with sharing a feeling, a need, an affirmation, and just go slow. Do something together.

James 31:39

Yep. And how often do you usually recommend, like if, if a wife is in one of your groups, she's like, I don't know. Like, can I really handle this? Do I need this? I kind of want a daily, do I need it daily? Do I, is it weekly, monthly? Like how do you, do you have a typical thing you recommend? Again, Erin said it's up to the couple ultimately, but what do you often recommend?

Anne 31:59

Well, she needs to, to have permission to settle in and say, what do I need and what I'm, what do I feel safe with right now? So it, it might be, um, once a week. It might be twice a week. It might be once a month. But, um, definitely the, the honesty piece, right, the sobriety piece, because without sobriety, you, you, you don't know where your relationship stands. You feel unsafe and unsteady. So, um, you know, depending on, um, what what you need and, and giving yourself permission to just ask yourself, what am I comfortable with? What do I need? And then, uh, articulate that to the spouse.

James 32:48

Yeah. Even if you're, again, in those spaces where you do have these check-ins, it's still gonna be so helpful. And more often than not, maybe a baseline for some couples is at least once a week. But even if your spouse doesn't wanna know everything, I mean, part of how we framed up this podcast is what if my spouse doesn't want to? Here are my confession. It might be that they don't actually want to hear details. Maybe you've been sharing too many details. Maybe they want to hear more broadly maybe, and occasionally, and Anne, you can correct this if you think differently, maybe they want to hear, at the very least, you're sharing very honestly, with your group, you're sharing very honestly, with your coach or counselor, you're sharing very honestly with your priests. Like they wanna know at the very least, that there's raw places where the, where the, the betrayer could go. Just be known, even if they're not ready to hear everything. How do you usually think about that, Anne?

Anne 33:41

Well, if they're being honest, right? If they are being honest with somebody and they are, um, I call it just brutal. Um, you know, brutal transparency. Hmm. They're walking in the light. They care about this. They care about their own, their own, um, you know, purity. Purity of heart and purity of mind. And a wife can tell like a broken man a, a person walking in recovery is not hard to see. So she'll feel it. She'll see it, she'll know it.

James 34:17

I love that brutal transparency as opposed to brutal honesty, which is usually when you say something to someone that might be truthful in your mind, but it's not loving. But brutal transparency is making yourself known completely, utterly, as much as your spouse wants to. And, uh, maybe it's loving honesty and brutal transparency go together, but, right. It's beautiful. Guys, we gotta begin to wrap up. Um, we're at our time here, but I do wanna share that step five is so important. It's setting your marriage up for long-term healing. For some couples, it's gonna be really important that you do a full therapeutic disclosure. Aaron and Ann on our team do these. They're trained in them. They've done. Uh, several, a bunch, um, over, over the years where everything gets on the table, it's

Therapeutic Disclosure And Couples Healing

James 35:01

formatted in a careful way. This is especially helpful for those who might have had years of, of hidden behavior, and the betrayal is so disorienting. Um, full therapeutic disclosure and then restored to more is our marriage healing group. And one of the things Anne and I have been learning over the years as we lead that is that as important as individual work is. People like, I believe Dr. Jake Porter. Ann says that we're, we're realizing that couples need to actually come together sooner than we used to think. As in, it doesn't make a ton of sense for most couples to do a year of individual work each. Instead, maybe it's a a, a month or two and then they're coming together. So that they're not completely on these separate healing journeys that might be kind of going in different directions, but getting some healing under each of your belts, some stability, and, but then restored to more such a great place for, uh, however many months into recovery for a couple to come together and really say, how do we do this together? And by the way, there's a lot of great betrayal, education in restorative moral, there's addiction education, so that. In this case, restored de more is for betraying husbands and betrayed wives, so that the wife can learn about the addiction, the husband can learn about betrayal. So some of our step three is actually included in something like restored de more in, in a lot of depth. And so, um, we don't have a ton of time to talk about those things, but anything either of you wanna say about full therapeutic disclosures or um, restored to more. We will link, by the way, both of those, uh, I think you guys did a podcast on the disclosures. We'll link to that and we'll link to the application for restored to more in the show notes.

Anne 36:42

Well, both are essential. Um, but you know, it, the full, the full therapeutic disclosure is a reset of the foundation of the relationship. When honesty is shared, the relationship has a chance to, to rebuild. Right? Rebuilding your house from the foundation up. Rebuilding from the truth will then right. Create safety and trust and vulnerability and intimacy. And

James 37:14

once we have a link to that pyramid in the stock as well, from, uh, that's from Dan Drake and, and the Rsmith, I believe, right?

Anne 37:19

Yes. Um, but the restore to more shifts. Helps a couple shift from crisis to repairing a secure attachment, and it takes the two and it brings them together to become one. And it's coupled centered recovery then.

James 37:40

Beautiful. And we limit that to only four to five couples. So if you're interested. Let us know. We're typically gonna be running that in April, and so if you're interested, go ahead and apply when you hear this because it's gonna be, uh, really transformed. We've run it twice, Ann and I, and it's been incredible. Aaron, anything briefly you want to add about disclosures or Yeah. In, in this case, disclosure. Yeah.

Aaron 38:02

Yeah. I would just say, you know, for any, especially for anyone's, you know, hearing this and, you know, realizing maybe you're at a place where this is gonna be really beneficial, but you're maybe scared to, to jump in or what it might mean or what it might look like if, you know, your, you maybe your spouse is aware of some of the things, but not all of the things. Um, and I would say, um, based on. Uh, just really our exa like our, um, the work that Anne and I have done and the work that we've seen in so many couples is that this really gives your relationship the best sort of fighting chance, um, of really experiencing a marriage like you always hoped and wanted and, uh, and thought maybe you had, um, that, that it's still possible. And, and we have seen. Several, several couples, um, you know, go through a full disclosure, some really hard stuff, um, you know, go through the entire process and. Can, can look back and say, we are at a better place than we have ever been. Um, and that's not a, a place most people think they're going maybe going to get to, um, when they start that process. And so again, it, there, there is no guarantee. Like you said earlier, James, um, you know, this isn't like a, a sure proof like way necessarily of. Avoiding divorce or those types of things. I mean, those things still, you know, can happen, you know, based on, you know, a lot of different things. But, um, but I would say that a, a full therapeutic disclosure is so beneficial 'cause it supports both the betrayer and the bet. In such a beautiful way through the entire process. It's not something they're walking through alone. Um, but that they're walking through with guides along the way. Um, doing a lot of preparation work and a lot of question and, and, you know, Ann and I are doing a lot of handholding, um, to kind of walk them through this process of hopefully what will be just a beautiful, uh, example of the Lord's restoration, uh, and repair in their. Their marriage.

James 40:18

Wonderful. Well, Aaron, would you be willing to close this with a prayer akin to what you were just sharing about praying that over us and our listeners?

Aaron 40:26

Yeah. No, Abba, father, we, um, yeah, we thank you for even just this PDF and these steps, Lord. And um, Lori just asked that you would, um, you know, give. Uh, the listeners and, uh, anyone, the Lord who this, you know, maybe specifically touched today, the,

Prayer For Courage And Restoration

Aaron 40:48

uh, as they listen or the courage to take the steps, Lord, to, um, you know, to do these things or especially to disclose and, and to possibly walk through the Lord that disclosure process, Lord, to experience the, the true depth of intimacy, Lord, that you, um. You met for marriage, Lord, when two become one un Lord, uh, completely whole, um, and thriving Lord, we don't, we don't wanna see marriages just survive. Lord, we want to see them thrive. And so we pray for thriving, um, for marriages, Lord, and for restoration and repair, Lord and your work Lord, to be done. Thank you Lord. We pray these things in Christ's name. Amen. Amen.