Shame Free

Shame has a way of hijacking your identity. It doesn’t stop at “I made a mistake,” it goes straight for “I am the mistake,” and it can feel so true that you start organizing your whole life around hiding. We sit with how heavy shame feels, why it shows up in our bodies, and why it can be especially intense for women navigating unwanted sexual behavior or betrayal trauma.

We break down a framework that changes the conversation: state shame versus trait shame. State shame is the in-the-moment sting that can rise and fall. Trait shame is the chronic, identity-level story of “I’m bad,” often shaped by early wounds, trauma, or long seasons of secrecy. We talk about how shame can masquerade as “protection,” pushing us to overperform, stay quiet, and keep people out so we can preserve relationships, even though it slowly isolates us from community and from God.

Then we anchor the whole topic in Scripture and hope. From Genesis 2:25 and the first experience of shame after the fall, to the prodigal son’s return, to Hebrews 12:2, where Jesus endures the cross “despising the shame,” we explore what it means to let God cover what we’ve tried to cover ourselves. We also offer practical next steps, including finding safe people, naming shame out loud, writing a letter to your shame, and a “redirect the arrow” exercise for those impacted by betrayal.

If shame has been running the show, you don’t have to carry it alone. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs a gentler path to healing, and leave a review or fan mail with one takeaway you’re choosing to practice this week.

Resources from this episode:

The Shame Training Company - https://www.shametraining.com/

Carolyn Spring: Reversing Adversity - https://www.carolynspring.com/

The Soul of Shame - Curt Thompson

Beloved: A Journey of Prayer - Dale Gish

We are excited to announce that we will be releasing new content on two different days. On Tuesdays, we will focus on women and unwanted sexual behaviors. And the next week, on Wednesdays, we focus on women impacted, recovering, and healing from betrayal trauma. Tune into one or both; either way, we pray it will bring healing and hope!

Contact us today: If you have a question, comment, or need help, email us at info@regenerationministries.org

Free Resources for you!

👉Women 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Women overcoming unwanted sexual Behavior)
👉Compass 21-Day Prayer Journal & Devotional - (Wives who are or have been impacted by partner betrayal)

Transcript

Prayer And Naming The Weight

Andrea 0:23

Ah, shame. I don't even wanna talk about it, but we've gotta talk about it. It's just bleh. It's yucky. It's bleh. I don't like it. And so as we start this very m- much more professional, contained conversation on shame, I do wanna, um, pray for our listeners from Psalm 34:5, that those who look to Him are radiant with joy, and not even a shadow of shame will cover their faces. Mm-hmm. So as we enter into this conversation on shame, that even as we were praying just before, I could feel it, like, oh, it's, it's in my gut, and it's really heavy. Yeah.

Kyle 0:57

Yeah.

Andrea 0:57

Um, I wonder if you're feeling that, too. So I pray that you sense, uh, His light Radiating on you and that not even a shadow, not even a shadow of shame- Mm will cross your face.

Kyle 1:13

Amen.

Andrea 1:15

Because everybody has experienced shame. This is common for all of us. Um, but in order to break free from unwanted s- sexual behavior, um, or to begin healing from the trauma of betrayal, it is important to know that shame is not forever. It is a momentary event that can make you feel really bad- Mm-hmm but it is not meant for forever.

Anne 1:45

That's why we're talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like,

Andrea 1:49

did you feel a release even with that?

Anne 1:51

Yeah, 'cause shame wants to make you feel like this is you for forever.

Kyle 1:56

Mm-hmm.

Anne 1:56

Mm-hmm. So that's

Why Shame Feels Like Forever

Anne 1:57

what we're gonna really try to get at today.

Kyle 2:01

Yeah, we've had some, some really good teaching from Kat Ethrington, who was shared- That frightened

Andrea 2:08

me.

Kyle 2:08

Yeah, who was on our podcast previously. And so a lot of what you hear today will be from some of the sources that she pulled from. Um, but I think, you know, it's helpful. Let's define shame.

Andrea 2:22

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kyle 2:23

Let's start

Andrea 2:23

there

Kyle 2:23

And Merriam-Webster, uh, the definition of shame is a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety. Now, all of that just sounds-

Anne 2:38

Mm. Yeah

Kyle 2:39

like-

Anne 2:40

Mm-hmm

Kyle 2:40

that's all heavy stuff right there.

Anne 2:42

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Kyle 2:44

And so I'm sure everybody listening can go, "Oh, yep. I know that." Mm-hmm. Or maybe somebody is going, "Oh, is that what that is?"

Anne 2:53

Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Or somebody else's impropriety.

Kyle 2:56

Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes, for sure. Um, and that's interesting, too, and we're, I know we're gonna get to that. Um, but one of the things that we were given was to kinda identify shame. There, like there are types of shame.

Andrea 3:11

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 3:11

There is trait shame, and there is state shame.

Anne 3:17

So helpful.

Andrea 3:18

Oh my gosh.

Kyle 3:19

Yeah.

Anne 3:19

This was so helpful for me. Yes.

Kyle 3:20

Okay, get

Andrea 3:20

ready. Go.

Kyle 3:21

Go, guys. Yes. Go. So state shame is the acute in the moment experience of shame, the feeling of shame, right? But trait shame is the chronic underlying sense of shame that makes up a person's sense of self and identity. So we're talking about, hey, I could have state shame where, wow, this thing happened. I feel some shame around it. I can process it, shake it off, and go.

Andrea 3:56

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 3:57

But then if I have s- uh, trait shame, now I'm going, "I'm bad."

Andrea 4:03

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 4:03

There's something wrong with me." Mm-hmm. So that gets to the core of your identity and who you are.

Anne 4:12

Yes. I thought even Cat kind of threw out, like, a state shame example, like when you're walking and you trip on the curb-

Kyle 4:20

Mm-hmm

Anne 4:20

and you stumble, or you just feel awkward 'cause you had heels and a skirt on, and you just feel shame. And but that is, um, state shame. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, yeah, it's, it's something you did. You felt it. It's not... It's situational. Um, it can spike. It can recede. Um, s- and I just thought that was helpful.

Kyle 4:45

Mm-hmm.

Anne 4:46

But the trait shame is so much, um, ooh, sneaky and nasty, and it really, um... It can show up as hiding, and over-performing, and "I'm bad", and I just think they're, they're so... It's so helpful to kind of, like, pull out these two differences.

Kyle 5:08

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think the other thing that was helpful was to understand that shame has a purpose, right? It has a purpose. Mm-hmm. Y- you feel the shame because now you have to y- especially with trait shame, right, there... You can't let people in and know, so now you have

State Shame Versus Trait Shame

Kyle 5:32

to present yourself in a certain way, right? Because people can't know you, um, because of your shame, right? So there's a purpose in the shame, and that, um, your shame is an effort for you to stay attached to, to keep relationships.

Andrea 5:53

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 5:54

Which feels a little bit counterintuitive, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause there's something about... You know, we were just talking about Genesis earlier, right? Mm-hmm. Adam and Eve felt shame. Mm-hmm. They hid, right? Wanna pull away. But then, but there's something within the shame that goes, "But I've gotta maintain relationships."

Andrea 6:20

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 6:21

So how do I hide this stuff so that I can maintain my relationships?"

Andrea 6:29

Right, right Yeah. I, I just go back to the trip, um, like tripping on the curb because state shame, you said that perfectly. And then trait shame would be if I tripped on the curb with trait shame, I'm an idiot.

Kyle 6:42

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 6:43

And then maybe I'm not gonna go in to this place that I was heading into. Right. Or maybe I'm gonna go in and just be real quiet because I'm an idiot. Like, it really takes over you internally- Mm-hmm instead of the state shame that you can kind of cut off. So But it has a purpose. I, I still

Anne 7:05

I don't like that.

Andrea 7:06

Yeah. But yeah.

Anne 7:07

I mean, and it is hard when you think about, like, the depth of the trait shame because it's often formed early, right, through family or trauma or relational wounds. Mm-hmm. You know, it's thick.

Kyle 7:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 7:20

It is thick and dark.

Kyle 7:22

Mm-hmm.

Anne 7:22

And so no wonder it's like I, I don't know how I'm gonna fully show up with, with people.

Kyle 7:30

Yeah.

Anne 7:30

Right? Mm-hmm. And you, so you project, like, happy or joyful or productive or, you know, educated, you know? And boy, that is just too hard to keep up.

Kyle 7:43

It is. It is emotionally draining. Mm-hmm. It is physically draining 'cause at some point you can't.

Anne 7:50

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 7:50

You, you will have a breaking point at s- at some place and time you're gonna have a breaking point because it is hard to try to maintain a persona that's not really you.

Andrea 8:01

Yeah.

Kyle 8:02

And, and the Lord doesn't want you-

Andrea 8:04

Mm

Kyle 8:04

to maintain a persona that's not you, right?

Andrea 8:07

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 8:08

Even- But it's

Anne 8:09

loud. It is loud. Yeah,

Kyle 8:10

yeah, yeah. And, and there's the idea of the safety, right? Mm-hmm. Of I have to 'cause maybe this keeps me safe. There's a part of this that keeps me safe. It keeps me from, um, maybe entering into painful relationships. Mm-hmm. Maybe it keeps me from, um, acknowledging the pain that was brought on by my spouse, right? And to know that in both of these instances, they, this shame keeps you from entering into the healing process.

Andrea 8:50

Mm.

Kyle 8:50

Like, if you're a woman who is struggling with unwanted sexual behavior, shame is gonna keep you in the cycle 'cause you'll get to a place where you go, "Okay, I'm tired of myself. I don't want anybody to know about this 'cause this is a really shameful thing." Mm-hmm. And you go along and you're not letting anyone else into the process. Mm-hmm. And you're going along, something happens. There's a fracture in a relationship. You lost your job, whatever it is. Then you're gonna get You drive to what things make you feel better, so whatever your unwanted sexual behavior is. And then you s- feel the shame because you gave in. Mm-hmm. And then you go, "Well, you know what? I'm gonna try again." And shame just wants to keep you in that cycle because nowhere in that cycle have you invited anybody in.

Anne 9:44

Mm.

Kyle 9:45

Right? And I'm sure- Mm-hmm it's the same-

Anne 9:48

Mm-hmm

Kyle 9:48

for a woman who has exper- experienced betrayal.

Anne 9:52

Right. I mean, she, she feels like she's been, um, left. I mean, sh- th- like her husband picked pornography or another person. So I'm, I have proof here. I was

How Shame Keeps You Stuck

Anne 10:07

left. Mm-hmm. And then it, and then it just says, it just spirals down to I wasn't enough, I couldn't be enough, I didn't, I didn't have this like they have. I mean, and so shame just loves, like, to make that truth for them.

Kyle 10:23

Mm-hmm. And it, and it pushes you so far away from God, right? Yeah. Because the, because again, that's a relationship. Mm-hmm. Right. And you, you wanna hide from God the things that you think are shameful.

Anne 10:39

Mm-hmm. Right. Or, or feelings about yourself that are, that are so heavy and dark and, and, um... Right. I, I can't tell you this, right? I j- I can't name this, this feeling

Andrea 11:00

And sometimes, um, shame becomes the attach- the thing we're attached to because it's predictable.

Kyle 11:07

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 11:08

You know, in, in an instance where there's been a betrayal, a- at least shame is predictable. I know what this feels like. Um, uh, in an unwanted sexual behavior, it, you know, in the cycle of addiction, I, I'm familiar with it. I'm comfortable because this is what I've known. So it becomes this awful crutch that like, it, it... I'm feeling like I'm imagining myself holding the crutch, and the crutch is shame. Mm-hmm. And people come, and I just, like, lift it up, like, "Stay away." Oh. Like, "I've got this. I've got this in my hand. I can control this. I know what I'm leaning on." Mm-hmm. Right? Um-

Anne 11:45

And your words are kind of like they just, like, let's say you don't really share, like, the deeper things to somebody. You just, you just share just, like, how, how you're doing. Like, "I'm doing pretty good." Or, and then someone has, like, a, a way to, like, try to buoy you, and it's just ne- it doesn't hit it. Like, it just doesn't hit- Mm-hmm hit in the depth of what you feel is true. Right.

Kyle 12:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's the other just yucky thing about shame because it does feel true, right? It feels like that's the truth. This is who I am, and-

Andrea 12:54

Mm

Kyle 12:54

this is who I will always be. You know, you start to project that you'll never be anybody different. Um, and so, you know, I think you said it earlier, like, the voice of shame is the loudest.

Anne 13:11

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kyle 13:13

And yet God wants to make His voice so much louder than that.

Anne 13:18

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 13:19

Um, and I think we've talked about this on this podcast before, but, like, if you just can grasp the shame of what the prodigal son must have felt coming back home, and yet he was willing to come back home.

Andrea 13:34

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 13:36

And he had this opportunity to experience the shame breaker.

Andrea 13:42

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 13:42

Right? Mm-hmm,

Andrea 13:42

mm-hmm. Mm.

Kyle 13:43

That he could come back and have love lavished on him, and that's what God desires- Mm for people who are really feeling shame. He never intended for us to experience this at all. No.

Anne 13:59

But that hug from his dad, like, "No matter what you did while you were gone, you're my son, and here is this hug of love."

Andrea 14:10

Mm-hmm. Can I do a little front of the Bible, back of the Bible? Because to me... Do I have my... Yes.

Kyle 14:19

I have

Andrea 14:20

my glasses. Um, Genesis 2. Genesis 2:25, "Both the man and his wife were naked, yet they felt no shame." This was the original design, right? They were exposed. They were enjoying the garden, had fruit, free movement throughout this garden, and they felt no shame. And then

Shame In Genesis And The Prodigal

Andrea 14:42

just a few sentences down after the fall in Genesis 3 We know that they felt shame and that they hid their, their shame pushed them away. Mm-hmm. They distanced themselves from God, and yet how did God respond? And we're gonna get to this because you've al- you've both said it several times already, but the, the Father asked questions.

Kyle 15:06

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 15:07

Um, where are you? He engaged with them.

Kyle 15:10

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 15:11

He engaged with them full stop. God the Father, creator of all of this loveliness, and the fact that he said, "Just don't eat from this," th- His creation, his most precious prized creation, did what he said please don't do.

Kyle 15:25

Mm.

Andrea 15:26

And he didn't discard them. He didn't blow them up. He engaged them. He sought them out, and he asked questions. And then-

Kyle 15:36

And then

Andrea 15:38

provided a covering for them- Mm-hmm,

Kyle 15:39

mm-hmm

Andrea 15:40

out of animal skins. He sent them out, out. That was, there's a consequence.

Kyle 15:43

Yeah.

Andrea 15:44

But he sent them out covering, with a covering for their shame. And then there's Jesus. He sends his only Son to be the covering for our sin.

Kyle 15:54

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 15:55

And Hebrews 12:2 says, "Jesus, the source and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that lay before him he endured the cross, despising the," not the lust, not the body, not the decision, not the addiction. Despising the shame. Despising the shame, "and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."

Kyle 16:18

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 16:20

This statement, this Bible Mm-hmm, mm-hmm is a statement on God's idea of shame. And we have, bleh, I feel it in my tummy. Mm-hmm. We have gone through the trait shame, the state shame, the sources of shame, the borrowed shame even. What do we do with it- Yeah, what do we do? as believers? Yeah. There are lots of scriptures that we can say. I just read some.

Kyle 16:46

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 16:47

And the whole Bible's filled with them. What can we do? What can we say? We don't want to be alone-

Kyle 16:54

Right

Andrea 16:55

I think is step one, right?

Kyle 16:56

Right, right. Yeah, what, what brave step can you take to invite one person in- Mm-hmm to your shame? Um, there's a couple quotes here from Kirk Thompson, I think, that are so good. Um, and these are from his book, The Soul of Shame. And he said, "To combat shame

Let Others In And Get Support

Kyle 17:17

is not merely to wrestle against something we detest. It is to do the very thing that provides the necessary, necessary space for each of us to live like God, become like Jesus, and to grow up to be who we were born to be."

Andrea 17:35

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 17:35

Shame is not something we fix in the privacy of our mental processes. Evil would love for us to believe that to be so. We combat it with, it within the context of conversation, prayer, and other communal embodied actions."

Anne 17:54

Mm, communal.

Kyle 17:55

Yes.

Anne 17:56

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 17:56

So you need the people.

Anne 17:58

Mm-hmm,

Andrea 17:58

the people asking, "Where are you?"

Kyle 18:00

Yeah.

Anne 18:01

Yeah, where are you? Why, what are you covering?

Kyle 18:03

Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's very- What

Anne 18:05

are you covering up? Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, what are you keeping, what are you keeping in?

Kyle 18:11

Mm-hmm.

Anne 18:11

Right? Like, if you could tell me one thing that you're struggling with, you know, tell me, you know?

Kyle 18:21

Mm-hmm. And to-

Anne 18:22

And then you usually hear, excuse me, you kinda hear back, like, "I, I have felt that too."

Kyle 18:27

Yes. Yeah. Oh my

Andrea 18:28

gosh, yes.

Kyle 18:29

You hear that. Yeah.

Anne 18:29

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 18:30

You hear thank you-

Anne 18:31

Yeah

Kyle 18:32

for sharing that with me. Mm-hmm. You get to receive the love of Jesus from another person- Yeah through another person, right?

Anne 18:40

Right, I'm so sorry you feel that way. Right.

Kyle 18:45

And, and I, I hope that our listeners have safe people, um, because we know that not all the people are safe. You know, if you don't have people who are... can't encourage you in that way, find somebody. Yes. Come contact us here at Regeneration, coach with us- Mm-hmm um, because we wanna be a safe place for you as well. Um, but you should have safe people in your life that you can open up to and share, and know that you're gonna get the love of Jesus returned to you.

Andrea 19:25

Uh, one, I love words, and words are very powerful for me. Um, and there is neuroscience behind physically writing- Mm-hmm your words. But sometimes if you are... I- if it doesn't... If it feels too brave to say the thing, if you can write a letter to your shame-

Anne 19:42

Yes

Andrea 19:43

like, "I, I don't know that I want you anymore."

Anne 19:46

Mm.

Andrea 19:46

I don't know that I want you running in my veins anymore or, or physically tripping me up." And write the letter and then have somebody read it in front of you- Mm-hmm and have that response- Mm of, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry."

Kyle 19:59

Yeah.

Andrea 19:59

Or, "This was so good."

Kyle 20:01

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 20:01

Good job."

Kyle 20:02

Mm.

Andrea 20:03

Um, it's a way not to... Like, a typical Andrea would be like, "Let's kick the crutch out of the way," but let's not do that. Um, sometimes you just need to look at the crutch and be like, "Hmm, it served a purpose- Yes for a time."

Kyle 20:15

Yeah.

Andrea 20:16

And now I might be-

Kyle 20:18

Mm-hmm

Andrea 20:18

willing to put you down."

Kyle 20:20

And you can acknowledge, right, the purpose. Mm. You can acknowledge it. Um, you can even talk about the scariness of not having it anymore.

Andrea 20:30

Mm.

Kyle 20:30

Right? 'Cause sometimes when you, when you've had an injury and you had to use a crutch, and then it's time to put the crutches down, you're like, "Ooh, wait, I don't know. I think I might still need the crutch." Right? You don't, you don't wanna put your whole weight down on it.

Anne 20:44

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 20:44

Uh, and y- you can feel free to say that- Mm-hmm to know that it did serve a purpose for me. And, and you might even feel like it worked well, uh, but I think there's a way that it will be even better.

Anne 20:58

Mm-hmm. A lighter way. Yeah. Um, I even like for, you know, women who are listening that have been just betrayed by their most sacred, you know, partner to... There's this phrase, like, redirect the arrow. Mm. And, um, you know, what I... I'm gonna, you know, just share kind of an, an activity you could do is just in, like, two columns. In one, like, what I tell myself because of what happened to me. Like, listen to, like, what you're telling yourself because of your s- um, spouse's betrayal. Then what does this actually say about him? What has he done to me? Like, redirect the arrow. Mm. Um, not to, like, you know, like, condemn him, but actually, like, his actions is making me feel stupid, less than, ugly, not picked. Like, wait a minute, the... He did actually have actions probably that started well before you-

Kyle 22:02

Mm-hmm

Anne 22:02

and turn, try to turn it away from you.

Andrea 22:07

Mm.

Anne 22:07

And, and also, please, you know, come, come share. Come share that feeling with one of us or a good friend.

Andrea 22:17

I love that activity. Mm-hmm. That's great.

Kyle 22:19

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 22:22

It's making me think of attachment, um, just to be seen, soothed, safe, and secure. Um, I'm gonna mess up his name, but I think it's Michael John Cusick who talks about sacred attachment. Um, when we've attached ourselves to shame, what would it look like to redirect the arrow even to be like, "God, how do you see me?"

Kyle 22:43

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 22:43

How can you soothe me? How can you make me feel secure? How can you make me feel safe, um, and give me eyes to see it, a body to feel it- Mm a heart to know it?" Um, because God wants that with us. Um, gosh.

Anne 23:00

When you shared those scriptures, um, Andrea, they felt powerful to me, like hearing them. Mm-hmm. And it's... And Jesus was the central, like bore our shame.

Andrea 23:12

Mm.

Anne 23:13

On Him.

Andrea 23:14

Mm-hmm.

Anne 23:15

Jesus is the-

Kyle 23:17

It makes me teary.

Anne 23:17

Yeah.

Kyle 23:18

Yeah.

Anne 23:18

Yeah, yeah.

Kyle 23:19

Mm-hmm.

Anne 23:19

Right.

Kyle 23:20

Yeah.

Anne 23:21

There's a place for it to go.

Kyle 23:22

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And He did all of the work of despising it, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Body Signs Of Shame And Freedom

Kyle 23:27

We don't have to hold in, like i- Kirk Thompson said here, just to wrestle with it and detest it and go, "Ugh," and hope that that's gonna be the thing. Yeah. Jesus already did all that.

Andrea 23:38

Yeah.

Kyle 23:39

All He's saying is just, "Hey, hand it over. I got it."

Anne 23:42

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kyle 23:44

Name it. A- and think about the freedom that you can experience if you can let it go.

Andrea 23:49

Yeah.

Kyle 23:51

How might your life right now today be different-

Andrea 23:54

Mm-hmm

Kyle 23:55

if you can let it go?

Andrea 23:56

Mm.

Kyle 23:58

What might you enter into that you haven't before because you just felt so much shame?

Andrea 24:04

Mm.

Kyle 24:05

What communities might you be more a part of because you felt a lot of shame? What are the-

Andrea 24:11

Hmm

Kyle 24:12

the, just even the individual relationships that you've wanted to have and don't because you just feel like, "I, I don't want anybody to know me really"?

Andrea 24:31

Um, trait shame is something that for sure I have done a lot of work on for myself. And, um, like even just as we were, uh, talking, I could feel my physical body. So I wonder i- if our listeners... Like, if your, your feet are up on your toes and your legs are tense or, um, that your shoulders are up really high. For me, um, my tongue goes and presses against the roof of my mouth really hard, and so I have to, um, relax my tongue. Mm. And that's just something that shame, like, shows up in a really tense- Mm-hmm um, way. So if you are feeling that, I wonder if shame is something that you are experiencing and don't know it yet. Um, so relax your shoulders-

Kyle 25:13

Mm-hmm

Andrea 25:14

and relax your tongue and let your heels hit the ground. Mm-hmm.

Kyle 25:19

Yeah. Stretch your body out. Shake out-

Andrea 25:22

Mm-hmm

Kyle 25:23

whatever, 'cause we know this is a heavy subject.

Andrea 25:26

Mm-hmm.

Kyle 25:26

Uh, and so it might stir something up within you as you listen. Uh, but hopefully what you also can hear is that there is freedom there. Mm-hmm. There's this, an invitation to freedom.

Anne 25:38

Mm.

Kyle 25:38

And how might you go after it?

Anne 25:39

Mm.

Kyle 25:40

And go after it. Yeah.

Anne 25:41

Yes, please.

Kyle 25:42

Yeah.

Anne 25:43

Because you're worth so much. Yeah. Especially if you've got this heavy, dark cloak on you.

Kyle 25:48

Mm-hmm.

Anne 25:49

Let's get that off and you're lighter. Mm-hmm.

Kyle 25:52

Yeah. And i- if you've, if you've been in contexts where you feel like, you know, "Oh, but I'm a, I'm a good Christian woman and I need to just get over it," or, you know, "I shouldn't be here. I should be down, further down the road-"

Andrea 26:11

Mm

Kyle 26:11

like, I hope you can just push all of that aside. There's another quote that I saw by a guy who is, um, he's a spiritual director. His name is Dale Gish, and he says, "God doesn't meet you where you wish you could be or where you think you ought to be. No, God meets you with great love exactly where you are."

Anne 26:38

Thanks, Kyle. Amen. Amen.

Andrea 26:42

I'm gonna go cry now. Happy tears.

Anne 26:44

Yes. Yeah, that feels like really a blessing

Andrea 26:53

Mm-hmm For the joy set before him-

Kyle 26:58

Mm-hmm

Andrea 26:59

he endured the cross, not despising you, not despising what you've done or what anybody's done to you, but despising the shame that wants to hold you down. He despises it.

Kyle 27:12

Mm-hmm.

Andrea 27:13

Let him wrestle it. Let him take it to the grave And let His light radiate on you, all around you, right where you are